But if one takes Fouke’s statement into consideration how do we account for weight? 180-200 lbs?

As it has been mentioned, this man was a trained professional and while they too are not error proof, a hundred pounds or more is a lot to be off about.

well we don’t know definitively what Ross’s weight was yet and besides in the pics of Ross does he LOOK 300 pounds?

No, to me he looks like he isn’t over 200. Jmo.

For all we know Ross could have lost weight or gained weight at some point.

BTW, Pickwickian Syndrome doesn’t mean a person appears fat/overweight. It is about how the fat is distributed throughout the body and how the tissue is a bit different kind of a fatty tissue. The syndrome actually is about how the patient can’t get enough O2 and has too much CO2… Essentially they don’t breath properly bc of the type of tissue surrounding their lungs also constructs their ability to breath (barrel chested). Their faces and necks are typically bigger/fatter bc fat stores around that area more than usual – Z was described as having a big head/face. Also the shortness of breath (didn’t Z breath heavy?) and edema in the legs (didn’t Z walk strange/slow/limp/slouch? Maybe he was in pain at times w his legs). They also have to exert more energy to get O2 and have sleeping issues which makes them drowsy in the daytime. They can become depressed and often irritable/angry.

But, you don’t necessarily have to be obese or morbidly obese to have Pickwickian syn

But if one takes Fouke’s statement into consideration how do we account for weight? 180-200 lbs?

As it has been mentioned, this man was a trained professional and while they too are not error proof, a hundred pounds or more is a lot to be off about.

Sitting down, baggy clothes, etc. Also, how do we explain Berryessa, a 210 lb Officer sunk down in the mud. Zodiac sunk down "much further". Safe to say, Zodiac was well over 210 lbs.

PP,don’t get hung up on the physical stuff. Follow the definite stuff in the case for Ross being Z.

*If Morril, the state’s top writing expert was right, Z was in the RCC Library, so was Ross.

*Ross looked identical to the SFPD Sketch, height or weight aside. He DID have the very distinct widow’s peak mentioned by Fouke

*Ross was well over 200 lbs, and so was Zodiac according to Ken Narlow’s team in Napa. Ross did not look like 300lbs

*Ross wrote morbid poems, and the writing linked to Zodiac was a morbid poem

*Ross knew Cheri and vice versa

*Ross’s Brother thought he was Zodiac

*Ross had writing similarities to Zodiac

*Ross was artistic, as was zodiac. Zodiac used different types of writing in different letters, and we know Ross wrote a paper about using different writing types

Stay focused on all of this as opposed to a height or weight description. Afterall, this Suspect is the ONLY Suspect that can ever be placed in the RCC library to date…PERIOD!

But if one takes Fouke’s statement into consideration how do we account for weight? 180-200 lbs?

As it has been mentioned, this man was a trained professional and while they too are not error proof, a hundred pounds or more is a lot to be off about.

well we don’t know definitively what Ross’s weight was yet and besides in the pics of Ross does he LOOK 300 pounds?

No, to me he looks like he isn’t over 200. Jmo.

I would guess from Ross’s pics, he was in the 250-260 range. According to his Friend, I would be off by 40 lbs

Agree completely Norse.
And concerning Bryan Hartnell’s (and Cecilia Shepard’s alleged) Zodiac height estimate, those estimates are IMHO totally useless due to that Zodiac was wearing that paperbag-shaped (BH’s statement that it had shape as a black paperbag) hood which IMHO made it totally impossible for them to make a credible estimate of Zodiac’s actual height, due to that the paperbag-shaped hood was probably higher than Zodiacs own head, in any case none knows if it was 2 cm higher or maybe even up to 15 cm higher.

Yes, the hood wouldn’t have made it any easier to judge his height, that’s for sure.

FWIW this is what Bryan says in the interview with Robertson (the relevant parts about height and weight):

BH: And I don’t know how tall he was. Maybe 5-8, or maybe 5-10, 6 feet, somewhere in there.

[Then adds that he’s a poor judge of height.]

(…)

JR: Now was he as heavy as I am?

BH: Well, I can’t say ’cause he wasn’t wearing those type of clothes [not a suit, like R, but sloppy clothes, making it harder to estimate body type] (…) How tall are you?

JR: I’m about five eleven.

BH: [States again that he was sloppily dressed]. He could be about the same. It’s hard to say. He was so sloppily dressed.

Right, BH is kind of all over the place with both height and weight.

And IMO it seems like he also kind of indicated that the killers possible stomach pouch could have come from that he had something in his pouch:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview4.html

"Maybe he had something in his pouch."

http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview8.html

"His pants real tight up and his stomach kind of pounched a bit, you know. I don’t know…it’s hard to say"

And I KNOW for sure that I have also read somewhere that, either Bryan Hartnell, or some of the witnesses at the Stine murder, said that the either barrel chested look or stomach pouch Zodiac seem to have could also have been that he was carrying something under his jacket on the frontside, my take is it could be like his gun, Stine’s partly shirt, Stines wallet & keyes, maybe another weapon like a knife?
Additionally, pleated wool pants and that Derby Jacket design also make you look heavier/beefier than you are.
Why do I believe this? well simply because BOTH Zodiac sketches from the Stine murder, without a doubt, show a person with normal/slim face and absolutely NOT an overweight OR beefy persons face.

Look at this guy how slim he is under his jacket, and how much bigger he looks when he close his Derby jacket

I’ll maintain once again that I’m not sure Z acted alone. There may be multiple people claiming to be Z as there were different accounts of how he looked.

That’s fair enough. Many people think along those lines. But it still doesn’t alter the fact that Ross resembles the Stine sketch, specifically. So, if the kids were terrible witnesses, that sketch isn’t worth much. They had to have seen Ross, and not some other guy, if we are putting any stock in the sketch. Someone else may have been involved, sure – but not there, not with Stine. That guy had to have been Ross – if we are to consider the sketch as compelling. Can’t have it both ways.

So we end up with this: The kids got a great look at his face but were pretty lousy judges of general frame, height, etc. It’s not ideal, that’s all I’m saying.

Bear in mind too that it kids/teens, plural. Not just one person, but three, who all agreed that he looked like the report says. If he was, in fact, a big, tall guy – this was missed by all three of them. And by Fouke, who isn’t anywhere near an estimate of well over six feet either.

But then again, why couldn’t it have been simply, Zodiac’s belly hanging over his belt? Combine with Ken Narlow’s team saying that Zodiac sunk down "much deeper" in the dirt than their 210 pound Officer. We are looking for a heavy Guy.

In 1968 via a newspaper article about Ross’ arrest it is said he was 300 lbs.

One might make themselves appear to be larger, but a 300+ lb. man doesn’t make himself appear to be 100 pounds less.

I don’t know if it helps to take for gospel everything else a witness says, then dismiss (for whatever reason) stuff that doesn’t jibe.

I’ll maintain once again that I’m not sure Z acted alone. There may be multiple people claiming to be Z as there were different accounts of how he looked.

That’s fair enough. Many people think along those lines. But it still doesn’t alter the fact that Ross resembles the Stine sketch, specifically. So, if the kids were terrible witnesses, that sketch isn’t worth much. They had to have seen Ross, and not some other guy, if we are putting any stock in the sketch. Someone else may have been involved, sure – but not there, not with Stine. That guy had to have been Ross – if we are to consider the sketch as compelling. Can’t have it both ways.

So we end up with this: The kids got a great look at his face but were pretty lousy judges of general frame, height, etc. It’s not ideal, that’s all I’m saying.

Bear in mind too that it kids/teens, plural. Not just one person, but three, who all agreed that he looked like the report says. If he was, in fact, a big, tall guy – this was missed by all three of them. And by Fouke, who isn’t anywhere near an estimate of well over six feet either.

How much of the final sketch was from Fouke, and how much was from the Kids? Maybe the 1st sketch is from the Kids(more generic)and the amended is from Fouke? The two versions look similar. The Kids may have gave a description similar to Fouke, but he saw Z up close from feet away not from across the street. This scenario makes the most sense to me.

In 1968 via a newspaper article about Ross’ arrest it is said he was 300 lbs.

One might make themselves appear to be larger, but a 300+ lb. man doesn’t make himself appear to be 100 pounds less.

I don’t know if it helps to take for gospel everything else a witness says, then dismiss (for whatever reason) stuff that doesn’t jibe.

But I think it’s been proven that Ross did not look 300 lbs to most of us. So,perhaps if Ross was Z, he did not look 300 lbs to witnesses.

In 1968 via a newspaper article about Ross’ arrest it is said he was 300 lbs.

One might make themselves appear to be larger, but a 300+ lb. man doesn’t make himself appear to be 100 pounds less.

I don’t know if it helps to take for gospel everything else a witness says, then dismiss (for whatever reason) stuff that doesn’t jibe.

But I think it’s been proven that Ross did not look 300 lbs to most of us. So,perhaps if Ross was Z, he did not look 300 lbs to witnesses.

You are talking high school in 1959 though.

Fouke said 180-200 lbs. from a close view point. There is no mistaken this from a 6’2" 300 pound man, imo.

How much of the final sketch was from Fouke, and how much was from the Kids? Maybe the 1st sketch is from the Kids(more generic)and the amended is from Fouke? The two versions look similar. The Kids may have gave a description similar to Fouke, but he saw Z up close from feet away not from across the street. This scenario makes the most sense to me.

Yep, I agree that it makes sense.

It’s not what either the teens or Fouke claim themselves, though. The former say that they asked for a second sitting with the artist (because they weren’t entirely satisfied with the first sketch) – and the latter says he never had any input regarding the composite(s).

It’s incredibly odd that he didn’t, though. Plus, his own observation (that Z looked older than the composite), jibes with the amended version (the guy looks somewhat older in the second one).

Hard to tell. Fouke apparently never talked to either Toschi or Armstrong either. It’s just…puzzling.

ugh yeah I heard something even more different which is that The first sketch WAS based on What Fouke said the Z looked like. I think Fouke then later came back and corrected the artist by telling him that the composite needed to age the suspect a bit more and change a few subtle features like widows peak etc.

I guess it was the kids who made the first composite although I could have swore both composites were based off of Fouke’s sighting.

If it was the kids and then Fouke the consistency in the suspects facial features is astounding.

Thanks for clearing all of this up. Again with so many differing accounts online and sleuths on other sites claiming theory as fact I get turned around.

And he never talked to T or A?!?! Uuuuugh PinkPhantom smash again!

Fouke stated he had nothing to do with the composite–either of them.

I think the facial features are simply the artist’s guess.

Fouke stated he had nothing to do with the composite–either of them.

I think the facial features are simply the artist’s guess.

Whoa! Then where did all the rumors of his involvement with the composites come from? I should go research this more. Any thread here that delves into Fouke’s supposed composite?

So they did talk to Fouke? Or is this just a letter sent to A and T that was never followed up on?

Edit: just looked read/through it all and realized its a letter from Fouke and indeed not a report. Still, it wasn’t followed up?